Curse

generik · Dec 13, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli Ander

(emphasis mine)
Please note that he said he was NOT a genius at creating builds.
Thank you for your time.

Since he is not a genius in creating builds then his whole argument is null and void, especially that bit where he mentioned he has many friends who are geniuses at creating builds.

So what? Does that affect his ability at all?

Either he is good at creating builds himself or has easy access to good builds, or he doesn't. There is no middle ground. Bringing up imaginary friends for argument's sake is just lame.

Spazzer · Dec 13, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

"This outlines a significant problem in game design. Developers typically have no business incentive to make a truly intelligent or challenging game, because the majority of consumers simply will not appreciate it. If a game, or part of the game, requires appreciable skill - rather than merely time investment - to beat, most players will simply give up and claim it is 'too hard' and 'not fun'."

The time investment IS the reason people don't play DoA. Welcome to reality. ~_~

Sable Phoenix · Dec 13, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Since he is not a genius in creating builds then his whole argument is null and void, especially that bit where he mentioned he has many friends who are geniuses at creating builds.

So what? Does that affect his ability at all?

Either he is good at creating builds himself or has easy access to good builds, or he doesn't. There is no middle ground. Bringing up imaginary friends for argument's sake is just lame.

So your friends never share their builds with you?

Appraently you cannot make simple logical inferences.

Burst Cancel · Dec 13, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

"This outlines a significant problem in game design. Developers typically have no business incentive to make a truly intelligent or challenging game, because the majority of consumers simply will not appreciate it. If a game, or part of the game, requires appreciable skill - rather than merely time investment - to beat, most players will simply give up and claim it is 'too hard' and 'not fun'."

The time investment IS the reason people don't play DoA. Welcome to reality. ~_~

Time investment is the reason your or I don't play DoA, sure. But reading over other threads in the past few weeks and standing in DoA listening to whiners, one major issue for the average player is party-wiping 5 minutes into the mission. This is significant because it is the average player that is fleeing DoA, and the average player that makes up the majority of the consumers.

Neven15 · Dec 13, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

so did they fix that bug for that door that isnt opening .

blastm · Dec 13, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

The fix is ready, but they are looking for new testers.
the old ones resigned when they were asked to go back in there to check if it worked.

leguma · Dec 13, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I remember facing a Factions Ele boss for the first time and seeing an entire party get wiped. At the time I asked my guildies if this is what they came up with to make PvE more interesting for chapter 2 (damage multiplier and fast casting) what on earth they were going to do for chapter 3. And now I have my answer. Question is now, what are they going to do for chapter 4? If chapter 3 brought us monsters that do 3x damage and have fast cast, in chapter 4 will they also give them the "Natural Resistance" found in Chapter 1 that also halves all hex and condition duration, or maybe half damage taken, or maybe both.

I don't think of myself as an uber player or whatnot, but I have had plentyfull experience in all forms of both PvE and PvP, and have done pretty much everything there is do in GW a long long time ago. There is, however one thing that I will probably never do (unless they give a very compelling reason to do so), and that is DoA. This game has always been about skill, player skill, and the most beautyfull thing about it was the ballance. Everyone is level 20, everyone can have the same equipment, and everyone has 2 professions and 8 skills. PvE has always been easy, and for anyone that has had any active interest in serious PvP, it has always been bland. With DoA things have gone one step further in the wrong direction.

Why, why, WHY would you ever simply slap on a damage multiplier on a monster and leave it at that. The game has a very delicate ballance, and this only seerves to rip that ballance apart and render it useless. It's like taking chess and playing against an opponent that can move twice every turn. That's not a challence, it's masochistic, and if you were to ever actually try to compete against that, you would have to play in a totally different way that would never be viable in a normal game.

A few pages ago, someone was talking about kiting and preemptive protting and pulling back and a lot of other strategies. Amongst other things, they mentioned that they had 6 copies of prot spirit on their bar. Kitting in DoA is simply not an issue, because a monster should never, EVER get near you. Any enraged creature can kill off a monk in 2 or 3 hits, as such, you have no place near them. If for some reason you do go near them, you should NOT kite, because that only increases the likelyhood of someone else in the party getting aggro, or even worse, bringing back the effect of long cast AoE spells to the rest of the party. Manuevering there is done by one person, and one person only, the TANK. Shutdown is largely useless because all the creatures have an obscene energy pool, and fast cast, your only real option is straight up damage, and even here, not just everything goes. Logically, because of the Enraged ability, you would pick off and spike the creatures one at a time, to minimize the damage that can be done to you. Of course, the only problem with this is that all the spike skills are heavily regulated because of PvP, and going down the spike route guarantees that it will take you att least 2 to 3 times as long to do anything.
Oh yeah, the prot spirit, forgot about those. So, DoA is not an insult to GW because if you have 6/8 people with prot spirit, you die less? Newsflash, the way GW works, with so much prot, you should not die at all, period, unless shutdown comes into play, but then there is not much of that going around, it's just damage.
SO, taking is a necesity, nuking is a must, shutdown is a joke, and then you need healing. So we're back to the good old tank, nuke, heal builds... the only improvement is that people have just discovered prot. Amazing.

All that having been said, one does have to wonder, is the most ballanced skill in the game, Enraged, needed? Why do groups of larger than 8 monsters only have one monk? Why do some not have any monk at all? Why is is that each and every monster does NOT have a Rez Sig? Why is it that some monsters simply DO NOT have 8 skills on their bars?
Personally I don't really care about DoA, it has offered no incentive to do it except for the obscene price of titan gems which is slowly going down and will not be worth the time investment a week from now. What I am worried about is the long term health of the game. If every chapter simply adds another point to the damage multiplier of the monsters, gives them more HP and energy and regen, Two chapters down the line GW PvE will be a very, very sad affair.

This is not a UBERzorz vs N00b WHINEzorz issue, it is a trend in development that could have a very negative impact upon the game if it continues.

Kenagalaz · Dec 13, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by leguma

I remember facing a Factions Ele boss for the first time and seeing an entire party get wiped. At the time I asked my guildies if this is what they came up with to make PvE more interesting for chapter 2 (damage multiplier and fast casting) what on earth they were going to do for chapter 3. And now I have my answer. Question is now, what are they going to do for chapter 4? If chapter 3 brought us monsters that do 3x damage and have fast cast, in chapter 4 will they also give them the "Natural Resistance" found in Chapter 1 that also halves all hex and condition duration, or maybe half damage taken, or maybe both.

actually, there were plenty of people who posted beating these ele bosses with 7 henchment (not heroes) and an empty skillbar

Quote:

I don't think of myself as an uber player or whatnot, but I have had plentyfull experience in all forms of both PvE and PvP, and have done pretty much everything there is do in GW a long long time ago. There is, however one thing that I will probably never do (unless they give a very compelling reason to do so), and that is DoA. This game has always been about skill, player skill, and the most beautyfull thing about it was the ballance. Everyone is level 20, everyone can have the same equipment, and everyone has 2 professions and 8 skills. PvE has always been easy, and for anyone that has had any active interest in serious PvP, it has always been bland. With DoA things have gone one step further in the wrong direction.

Why, why, WHY would you ever simply slap on a damage multiplier on a monster and leave it at that. The game has a very delicate ballance, and this only seerves to rip that ballance apart and render it useless. It's like taking chess and playing against an opponent that can move twice every turn. That's not a challence, it's masochistic, and if you were to ever actually try to compete against that, you would have to play in a totally different way that would never be viable in a normal game.

A few pages ago, someone was talking about kiting and preemptive protting and pulling back and a lot of other strategies. Amongst other things, they mentioned that they had 6 copies of prot spirit on their bar. Kitting in DoA is simply not an issue, because a monster should never, EVER get near you. Any enraged creature can kill off a monk in 2 or 3 hits, as such, you have no place near them. If for some reason you do go near them, you should NOT kite, because that only increases the likelyhood of someone else in the party getting aggro, or even worse, bringing back the effect of long cast AoE spells to the rest of the party. Manuevering there is done by one person, and one person only, the TANK. Shutdown is largely useless because all the creatures have an obscene energy pool, and fast cast, your only real option is straight up damage, and even here, not just everything goes. Logically, because of the Enraged ability, you would pick off and spike the creatures one at a time, to minimize the damage that can be done to you. Of course, the only problem with this is that all the spike skills are heavily regulated because of PvP, and going down the spike route guarantees that it will take you att least 2 to 3 times as long to do anything.
Oh yeah, the prot spirit, forgot about those. So, DoA is not an insult to GW because if you have 6/8 people with prot spirit, you die less? Newsflash, the way GW works, with so much prot, you should not die at all, period, unless shutdown comes into play, but then there is not much of that going around, it's just damage.
SO, taking is a necesity, nuking is a must, shutdown is a joke, and then you need healing. So we're back to the good old tank, nuke, heal builds... the only improvement is that people have just discovered prot. Amazing.

All that having been said, one does have to wonder, is the most ballanced skill in the game, Enraged, needed? Why do groups of larger than 8 monsters only have one monk? Why do some not have any monk at all? Why is is that each and every monster does NOT have a Rez Sig? Why is it that some monsters simply DO NOT have 8 skills on their bars?
Personally I don't really care about DoA, it has offered no incentive to do it except for the obscene price of titan gems which is slowly going down and will not be worth the time investment a week from now. What I am worried about is the long term health of the game. If every chapter simply adds another point to the damage multiplier of the monsters, gives them more HP and energy and regen, Two chapters down the line GW PvE will be a very, very sad affair.

This is not a UBERzorz vs N00b WHINEzorz issue, it is a trend in development that could have a very negative impact upon the game if it continues.

Actually, lightbringer and cry were interupts taken, backfire was also used as a shutdown spike. We had some mix of AoEs (including SS) and spike damage. Kiting speeds up combat and reduces damage (instead of wiping, ressing, and restting), this includes monks. it's only when monks can't heal without kiting when it becomes a problem. Dervish and assassins can double hit. PS gets stripped by inspired/drain/shatter/descrate/ and whatever that dervish enchantment strip is. even with PS, if you stand still and let 5 people hit you with double hits at once, you're dead. the high number of enemies that hit for more than 10% of HP makes sitting and tanking, even with PS, impossible for squishy casters. not to mention the damage from AoE from casters, dervish, death blossom, etc that stacks on top of that.

They use alot of interrupts too, glyph conc mantra resolve may stop cry and power drain/ power leech. However, since power block disables your skill (instead of interrupts) you cannot concentrate through it. they also use arcane theivery and arcane larceny

Inner Salbat · Dec 13, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastm

The fix is ready, but they are looking for new testers.
the old ones resigned when they were asked to go back in there to check if it worked.

How did you come by this information?

doesn't sound very trust worthy to me, I mean arenanet don't need to test with beta testers, they have there cheat keys I would assume, /killall for example kills everything on the radar that is an enemy target, or some sort of script to skip to certain parts.

Sli Ander · Dec 14, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Ummm.. I kinda read that as a joke myself, Salbat. Its makes me giggle maniacally to think of Alpha/beta testers too scared to go back in and check on mallyx.

And from what Gaile said about her own char, she can only teleport to certain cities, so the testers don't necessarily have cheat codes(Gaile explicitly stated they cannot spawn items in the live servers)

But that's just my two cents

[DE] · Dec 14, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli Ander

Ummm.. I kinda read that as a joke myself, Salbat. Its makes me giggle maniacally to think of Alpha/beta testers too scared to go back in and check on mallyx.

And from what Gaile said about her own char, she can only teleport to certain cities, so the testers don't necessarily have cheat codes(Gaile explicitly stated they cannot spawn items in the live servers)

But that's just my two cents

But what's stopping them from using private servers?

Sli Ander · Dec 14, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

But what's stopping them from using private servers?

Most likely they're just using the test servers(or whatever they call them) to make sure it goes well. But what happens when they want to stream it into the live server? do they normally test right after, or just wait for us to test it for them?

Bowman Artemis · Dec 14, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Oops, wrong thread.